Hey man! before I say anything else, I just want to point out that I have never played a video game and I fully agree that it is a colossal waste of time.
However, telling young men, who are probably just beginning to face real disappointments in their lives, that their only value to the world is what they can provide to other people is pure ragebait. And its not just about the wording, why are we teaching young men and women that the world is a horrible ugly place that is hellbent on causing them suffering (for women, its the feminists who provide this service). And if we are doing that, why are we surprised when they do not want to date or have kids? In fact, if society and the world at large is such a sad miserable place, then why should anyone put in any effort into anything?
Yeah it could have been stated more productively. But it was a throwaway comment arguing with a 200-follower idiot, I didn't anticipate it becoming the centerpiece of the discourse.
But sooner or later young men do need to grapple with the need to become something, it's a law of nature. And that's not an ugly fact, it's beautiful in its own way. Responsibility isn't an inconvenience distracting you from your true life, it is your true life, it's the good stuff that makes it mean anything. A lot of the manosphere is really just a dark mirror reflection of feminism, the fantasy of male liberation from all duty and obligation. That was already largely achieved for women and they have never been more miserable. There's a lesson there.
"A lot of the manosphere is really just a dark mirror reflection of feminism, the fantasy of male liberation from all duty and obligat"
Have mentioned before elsewhere that the postmodernist drive for individualization and fulfillment inherently means (for both sexes) that words like "duty" are archaic and obsolete. You just can't go around telling WEIRDos that they actually owe other people things for reasons other than their own self-fulfillment, it's too counterintuitive.
Good news, though, is I think this mindset will, over a course of a century or so, wane thanks to people failing the Great Marshmallow Test that is having kids. Bad news is that this process will be uh unpleasant.
I'm pretty sure normgroidcattle still derive a lot of self-fulfillment from their normie customs, and they're plenty WEIRD (which just means this side of hajnal). Of course these customs are absolutely useless for establishing onesself in or even navigating the world, but the normies don't need to do either of those things anymore.
It also perpetuates a bad idea that, as far as I can tell, originated with the redpills and incels, that women are intrinsically valuable, but men are only valuable for what they can provide.
This is false. Men and women are both created in the image of God and have inherent dignity and moral value.
I'm in Hawaii eating fish tacos. "So, this guy I usually respect says travel is bad, I think he's joking but he's gotten under my skin. What if I'm the one who's wrong? My bourgeois values dictate that if I'm the one who turns out to be wrong I am required to feel bad about myself!"
"Pretty sure bourgeois values don't say that, it's just your own weirdass values. Maybe you should stop looking at Twidder!"
"Well, I have to promote my work, though. I'm building my brand."
There is something wonderful about a relationship where your significant other is smart, but completely disinterested in the minutiae of some aspects of your social or professional life. It's like having an on call management consulting firm that cares about the project that is your life when you bring them in, but they actually want you to be happy instead of just maximizing billable hours.
Hahaha this is so good, the analogy made me laugh. Saving it to use again.
My wife is very much like this - smart and very accomplished, but totally disinterested in some of the topics I pursue, at least until I bring them up.
Getting into Twitter slapfights seems just as much as a waste of time as playing video games does. Both make people feel like they’re winning something when that something is points on a screen.
People love causing their own issues then get so mad if you point out they shot themselves in the foot. Video games are the incels emotional support footgun just like starting twitter beef is yours lol
I like your stuff and I’m married with a kid but I also thought your comment was wrong. You basically said a Jordan Petersonism of how the only thing that matters is the value you bring others. The reason this looks Iike slavery is because you are basically saying you should sacrifice everything for no reason than to please a feminist woman who might have sex with you but she has no real obligations to you (in most modern marriages at least). This sounds like cucking out on your sex and the Andrew Tates of the world will destroy you unless you have an actual counter to him (an analogy to arguing like this is the one guy who never hangs out with his friends because his wife doesn’t like him out of the house at all). To actually beat Tate and the red pillers you don’t do this clean your room absurdist/stoic idea that falls apart if you ask 2-3 questions because it’s totally illogical, you use reason. You tell men you are a created being with reason and a purposed built into you and you have to follow the moral law, which entails you get married and having lots of kids unless called to celibacy for a specific religious reason. You also tell men they are the patriarchs of their homes and if they don’t act like it they are shirking their duty. If you don’t have actual reason behind this argument, you just sound like your being manipulated by women or Jews or whatever other class has interested contrary to white gentile men especially when you use the insult incel which is a magic word that is just used to discredit young men who have been handed a dating market full of feminist girl bosses and zero authority both of which are contrary to marriage.
This kind of comment came up frequently on twitter as well, and it should be obvious why it's wrong. Nowhere did I state that a man should sacrifice everything of himself, nor did I address a wife's obligations to her husband. As to the first, it should be obvious from how I conduct my own affairs online that I take plenty of not-strictly-productive time for myself, and I stated as much in the original tweet and replies that nobody bothered to read. As to the second, I have written about that topic frequently elsewhere, both here and on twitter, but this tweet was addressing men.
What I actually said was: the world values a man according to what he provides for others. This is indisputable. It doesn't preclude the possibility he produces surplus value he can expend on himself.
I agree with your deontological arguments about purpose but I promise you the professional masturbators swarming me on twitter do not.
Fair enough and I like your stuff so I should show more charity, a lot of context gets lost on social media. I find that young men don’t take advice from older men unless they are clearly patriarchs who totally reject modern feminism which is impossible to know about a person you don’t know so certain language acts as hints as to what your beliefs are. Also small point my argument was metaphysical from the tradition of Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas etc deontology is modern Kantian stuff and that actually fits better with the boomercon advice on women
Clean up your room simply means you should put yourself right before criticizing others/the world. Always saddens me to see JP lumped in with people like Tate
In fairness I don’t think Peterson and Tate are morally equivalent but they are avatars for the boomercon message to men and the Nietzscheian. Peterson is nice enough but just telling young men to get yourself right and find the biggest load to carry doesn’t solve the problem of nihilism young men face, which is why many reject him for Tate. We need a better message
So I'm not going to call you a goyslave because that's retarded, but I actually don't think that videogames are a waste of time inherently. I think it depends a lot on the game. If reading a book like The Lord of the Rings is not a waste of time, then playing through a story-based video game with similar literary value is not a waste of time. I do think that spending all you time playing CoD online is a waste because you don't get anything out of it except for endorphin hits. Playing through something like the Insomniac Spider Man game or The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess has a similar cathartic effect as reading through a novel or watching a film exploring similar themes to the games.
Obviously playing videogames with other people well can also provide value for them. This question mostly revolves around who those other people are, random teenage boys across the Internet vs the hot girl at a local party.
I disagree that gaming is a waste of time. It can be, yes, but so can consuming media of any sort. And if it’s a narrative-based or “deeper” game, it can even be enriching. There’s slop in every medium, it’s not like gaming is unique in that regard.
And it’s all about balance, in any case. Anything in excess is detrimental. Even playing an instrument, if you use it as an escape or excuse to avoid your responsibilities or other parts of your life.
I think you’re underestimating the social role of video games as a shared hobby and nexus of community.
Of course online-only interaction is pretty impoverished, but that also applies to a lot of musical activity nowadays. Youtube guitar is about as social as video game streaming, and does not involve more or less discipline and mastery, depending on the game. “The internet is IRL now” doesn’t mean it’s great at it.
Physically meeting up around a hobby is important. Bring back the LAN party! I also had great fun playing things like old Lucas Arts adventures and puzzle games on one screen with the wife and kids.
The real issue is that video games don’t get you laid (for straight men at least; exceptio probat etc), compared to playing the guitar. This is bad in the “sex leads to relationships” model, which is worse than the opposite IMO, but it’s also the current default.
The Socratic dialogue with your wife over the video game controversy is comedy gold and sad in a way in that describing these factions and terms out loud to someone not involved in online discourse just makes you feel grubby for even knowing it lol. The whole thing made me think of King David in the Bible in that it’s one of the few instances where God tells a person that he was a man after his own heart. David was a musician and poet among other things and that lets you know God loves a what would be later considered a renaissance man. I doubt God would have thought the same of David if he spent his time and energy on mastering world of Warcraft…
As your Bleak House man might say. It was the best of places, it was the worst of places, it was the place of wisdom, it was the place of foolishness...it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.
I really like this. You are consistently great. I appreciate your insights, instincts, effort, and talent. I’m a fan of your work.
This really bothers me, by the way! I really don’t like being a fan of people. I’m jealous of your bravery, clarity, and the degree of self acceptance you display. These traits are hard to grow, and I’m seeing a spectacular display of rare and valuable skills.
Thank you, mostly, for demonstrating and validating that it’s acceptable to trust your own value judgements.
Some people get conditioned out of that instinct with violence and lose themselves to proxies. Some people never learn to make their own.
Hey man! before I say anything else, I just want to point out that I have never played a video game and I fully agree that it is a colossal waste of time.
However, telling young men, who are probably just beginning to face real disappointments in their lives, that their only value to the world is what they can provide to other people is pure ragebait. And its not just about the wording, why are we teaching young men and women that the world is a horrible ugly place that is hellbent on causing them suffering (for women, its the feminists who provide this service). And if we are doing that, why are we surprised when they do not want to date or have kids? In fact, if society and the world at large is such a sad miserable place, then why should anyone put in any effort into anything?
Yeah it could have been stated more productively. But it was a throwaway comment arguing with a 200-follower idiot, I didn't anticipate it becoming the centerpiece of the discourse.
But sooner or later young men do need to grapple with the need to become something, it's a law of nature. And that's not an ugly fact, it's beautiful in its own way. Responsibility isn't an inconvenience distracting you from your true life, it is your true life, it's the good stuff that makes it mean anything. A lot of the manosphere is really just a dark mirror reflection of feminism, the fantasy of male liberation from all duty and obligation. That was already largely achieved for women and they have never been more miserable. There's a lesson there.
"A lot of the manosphere is really just a dark mirror reflection of feminism, the fantasy of male liberation from all duty and obligat"
Have mentioned before elsewhere that the postmodernist drive for individualization and fulfillment inherently means (for both sexes) that words like "duty" are archaic and obsolete. You just can't go around telling WEIRDos that they actually owe other people things for reasons other than their own self-fulfillment, it's too counterintuitive.
Good news, though, is I think this mindset will, over a course of a century or so, wane thanks to people failing the Great Marshmallow Test that is having kids. Bad news is that this process will be uh unpleasant.
I'm pretty sure normgroidcattle still derive a lot of self-fulfillment from their normie customs, and they're plenty WEIRD (which just means this side of hajnal). Of course these customs are absolutely useless for establishing onesself in or even navigating the world, but the normies don't need to do either of those things anymore.
It also perpetuates a bad idea that, as far as I can tell, originated with the redpills and incels, that women are intrinsically valuable, but men are only valuable for what they can provide.
This is false. Men and women are both created in the image of God and have inherent dignity and moral value.
My husband just says "maybe you should stop."
I'm in Hawaii eating fish tacos. "So, this guy I usually respect says travel is bad, I think he's joking but he's gotten under my skin. What if I'm the one who's wrong? My bourgeois values dictate that if I'm the one who turns out to be wrong I am required to feel bad about myself!"
"Pretty sure bourgeois values don't say that, it's just your own weirdass values. Maybe you should stop looking at Twidder!"
"Well, I have to promote my work, though. I'm building my brand."
"How many books have you sold?"
"I sold one a month ago..."
I should buy your book
There is something wonderful about a relationship where your significant other is smart, but completely disinterested in the minutiae of some aspects of your social or professional life. It's like having an on call management consulting firm that cares about the project that is your life when you bring them in, but they actually want you to be happy instead of just maximizing billable hours.
Hahaha this is so good, the analogy made me laugh. Saving it to use again.
My wife is very much like this - smart and very accomplished, but totally disinterested in some of the topics I pursue, at least until I bring them up.
Getting into Twitter slapfights seems just as much as a waste of time as playing video games does. Both make people feel like they’re winning something when that something is points on a screen.
My wife would lose her mind on a 2/10 in the Twitter bantz scale, so I can't even comprehend how she would react to this.
People love causing their own issues then get so mad if you point out they shot themselves in the foot. Video games are the incels emotional support footgun just like starting twitter beef is yours lol
I like your stuff and I’m married with a kid but I also thought your comment was wrong. You basically said a Jordan Petersonism of how the only thing that matters is the value you bring others. The reason this looks Iike slavery is because you are basically saying you should sacrifice everything for no reason than to please a feminist woman who might have sex with you but she has no real obligations to you (in most modern marriages at least). This sounds like cucking out on your sex and the Andrew Tates of the world will destroy you unless you have an actual counter to him (an analogy to arguing like this is the one guy who never hangs out with his friends because his wife doesn’t like him out of the house at all). To actually beat Tate and the red pillers you don’t do this clean your room absurdist/stoic idea that falls apart if you ask 2-3 questions because it’s totally illogical, you use reason. You tell men you are a created being with reason and a purposed built into you and you have to follow the moral law, which entails you get married and having lots of kids unless called to celibacy for a specific religious reason. You also tell men they are the patriarchs of their homes and if they don’t act like it they are shirking their duty. If you don’t have actual reason behind this argument, you just sound like your being manipulated by women or Jews or whatever other class has interested contrary to white gentile men especially when you use the insult incel which is a magic word that is just used to discredit young men who have been handed a dating market full of feminist girl bosses and zero authority both of which are contrary to marriage.
This kind of comment came up frequently on twitter as well, and it should be obvious why it's wrong. Nowhere did I state that a man should sacrifice everything of himself, nor did I address a wife's obligations to her husband. As to the first, it should be obvious from how I conduct my own affairs online that I take plenty of not-strictly-productive time for myself, and I stated as much in the original tweet and replies that nobody bothered to read. As to the second, I have written about that topic frequently elsewhere, both here and on twitter, but this tweet was addressing men.
What I actually said was: the world values a man according to what he provides for others. This is indisputable. It doesn't preclude the possibility he produces surplus value he can expend on himself.
I agree with your deontological arguments about purpose but I promise you the professional masturbators swarming me on twitter do not.
Fair enough and I like your stuff so I should show more charity, a lot of context gets lost on social media. I find that young men don’t take advice from older men unless they are clearly patriarchs who totally reject modern feminism which is impossible to know about a person you don’t know so certain language acts as hints as to what your beliefs are. Also small point my argument was metaphysical from the tradition of Aristotle, Augustine, Aquinas etc deontology is modern Kantian stuff and that actually fits better with the boomercon advice on women
Clean up your room simply means you should put yourself right before criticizing others/the world. Always saddens me to see JP lumped in with people like Tate
In fairness I don’t think Peterson and Tate are morally equivalent but they are avatars for the boomercon message to men and the Nietzscheian. Peterson is nice enough but just telling young men to get yourself right and find the biggest load to carry doesn’t solve the problem of nihilism young men face, which is why many reject him for Tate. We need a better message
Those two are very different beasts, for damn sure.
I also hate when Tate and his retarded ilk are what people mean when they say "red pill." Completely off the mark.
Oh my god, this is me trying to explain the latest Substack discourse to my husband. Hilarious.
Substack discourse? I think you mean Xitter Xosting discourse.
So I'm not going to call you a goyslave because that's retarded, but I actually don't think that videogames are a waste of time inherently. I think it depends a lot on the game. If reading a book like The Lord of the Rings is not a waste of time, then playing through a story-based video game with similar literary value is not a waste of time. I do think that spending all you time playing CoD online is a waste because you don't get anything out of it except for endorphin hits. Playing through something like the Insomniac Spider Man game or The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess has a similar cathartic effect as reading through a novel or watching a film exploring similar themes to the games.
Obviously playing videogames with other people well can also provide value for them. This question mostly revolves around who those other people are, random teenage boys across the Internet vs the hot girl at a local party.
This is why I had to quit Twitter
I disagree that gaming is a waste of time. It can be, yes, but so can consuming media of any sort. And if it’s a narrative-based or “deeper” game, it can even be enriching. There’s slop in every medium, it’s not like gaming is unique in that regard.
And it’s all about balance, in any case. Anything in excess is detrimental. Even playing an instrument, if you use it as an escape or excuse to avoid your responsibilities or other parts of your life.
I think you’re underestimating the social role of video games as a shared hobby and nexus of community.
Of course online-only interaction is pretty impoverished, but that also applies to a lot of musical activity nowadays. Youtube guitar is about as social as video game streaming, and does not involve more or less discipline and mastery, depending on the game. “The internet is IRL now” doesn’t mean it’s great at it.
Physically meeting up around a hobby is important. Bring back the LAN party! I also had great fun playing things like old Lucas Arts adventures and puzzle games on one screen with the wife and kids.
The real issue is that video games don’t get you laid (for straight men at least; exceptio probat etc), compared to playing the guitar. This is bad in the “sex leads to relationships” model, which is worse than the opposite IMO, but it’s also the current default.
Yup. Baldur's Gate 3 is cheaper and more convenient than playing D&D at the actual game shop but you meet men and women at the actual game shop.
The Socratic dialogue with your wife over the video game controversy is comedy gold and sad in a way in that describing these factions and terms out loud to someone not involved in online discourse just makes you feel grubby for even knowing it lol. The whole thing made me think of King David in the Bible in that it’s one of the few instances where God tells a person that he was a man after his own heart. David was a musician and poet among other things and that lets you know God loves a what would be later considered a renaissance man. I doubt God would have thought the same of David if he spent his time and energy on mastering world of Warcraft…
As your Bleak House man might say. It was the best of places, it was the worst of places, it was the place of wisdom, it was the place of foolishness...it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair.
I really like this. You are consistently great. I appreciate your insights, instincts, effort, and talent. I’m a fan of your work.
This really bothers me, by the way! I really don’t like being a fan of people. I’m jealous of your bravery, clarity, and the degree of self acceptance you display. These traits are hard to grow, and I’m seeing a spectacular display of rare and valuable skills.
Thank you, mostly, for demonstrating and validating that it’s acceptable to trust your own value judgements.
Some people get conditioned out of that instinct with violence and lose themselves to proxies. Some people never learn to make their own.