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Scott Alexander's avatar

Another post starting with "I liked when Scott punctured liberal orthodoxies, but now that I notice he's also puncturing conservative orthodoxies, I'm having to re-evaluate him".

But they're coming from the same place! The liberal with the "lived experience" that police are commiting genocide against black people (even though statistics say such killings are rare and around expected base rates), and the conservative with the "lived experience" that their friend's nephew got autism at around the same time as getting a vaccine (even though studies say there's no link) are coming from the same place. And I accuse this article of coming from that place too.

I know you think you're smarter than that because you use Greek words and appeal to the James Scott tradition of the fallibility of metrics. You would like to think that *you* are wisely balancing the value of data with a well-honed understanding of its potential failure modes, and *I* am blindly subscribing to a Church Of Graphs.

But sorry, I think I'm the one doing the wise balancing. Yes, I posted a graph, but then I immediately talked about the many ways the graph could be wrong or biased, and discussed each of them and whether they're true. Then I talked about ways why people might have vibes that disagree with the data, and came up with theories about those, and test them. In the end, I end up concluding that some types of crime and disorder are up over certain time periods, and other types are down over the same time period, in ways that I hope don't do much violence either to the consensus interpretation of the data or to most people's lived experiences. Then I wrote another post about the conflict between graphs and lived experience and why I think it's important to look at the graphs even when the lived experience also has value (https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/malicious-streetlight-effects-vs) . I wrote five thousand words over three posts entirely devoted to trying to rebut the accusations you're levying here. All of the counterarguments you're bringing up, I examined as honestly as I could and weighed against other things.

I don't think you read the majority of this, because you still make the same counterarguments that my posts were meant to analyze, as if they're totally new things I never considered. For example, you bring up the "shoplifting reports from one Target" thing as proof that I might be missing something, but I discussed it in the post in a section starting "Could stores be failing to report to police" (CTRL-F "there was an embarrassing incident . . . where two stores briefly changed their reporting policy and nearly doubled the total report number). Then I talk about the alternate collateral source I'm using to try to avoid that problem.

Or: you cite a four year trend in motor vehicle theft that looks pretty bad. But when you zoom out to see the years before and after your selection, you find the overall trend looks like https://www.statista.com/statistics/191216/reported-motor-vehicle-theft-rate-in-the-us-since-1990/ , which is exactly the same as the overall property crime trend that my post analyzed. You just took a four year period that looked especially bad out of context from the middle of my graph, covered up the periods before and after, then tried to use it as a rebuttal of the graph. I'm sure it confirmed your lived experience, but I still think this is a Graph Crime, if not a Graph Church Mortal Sin.

Whatever else you think I'm missing because of my benighted graphophilia, I suspect if you read the post you'll find I considered that too. I promise I'm not just looking at graphs and ignoring possible objections. Instead, I'm looking at the same complex picture you are, but trying to actually follow it where it leads, instead of saying "gotcha" and stopping at the first piece of evidence that supports my own worldview.

Even though I agree lived experience has value, I still think writing posts like these is important, for the reasons I pointed out in If It's Worth Your Time To Lie, It's Worth My Time To Correct It ( https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/if-its-worth-your-time-to-lie-its ). Here's what I wrote about this question in my post:

>>>> "Many people complained that by talking about crime yesterday, I was distracting from the rise in disorder. Probably people will complain today that by talking about littering and graffiti and so on, I’m distracting from some other kind of disorder which is definitely increasing - maybe open-air drug markets, or tent cities, or the boom boxes. That’s fine. But as I said when arguing with you in the comments, I think the following two statements are importantly different:

1. Littering, graffiti, and most violent and property crimes are down, but tent encampments and boom box playing are up. Shoplifting is stable nationally, but that could hide local variation. As some areas gentrify and others worsen, there are shifts in who experiences these problems, and the well-off highly-literate white people who set the national conversation are getting more exposed to them.

2. Crime and disorder are rampant, nobody feels safe anymore, cities are falling apart and the police don’t care, the West has fallen.

My goal isn’t to deny anyone’s lived experience, nor to discount the importance of solving these problems (I support the death penalty for boom box carriers). It’s to push back against a sort of Revolt Of The Public-esque sense that everything is worse than it’s ever been before and society is collapsing and maybe we should take the authoritarian bargain to stop it. On an emotional level, I feel this too - I can’t go downtown without feeling it (one of many reasons I rarely go to SF). But I don’t like feeling omnipresent despair at the impending collapse of everything. Having specific thoughts like house prices are up since the pandemic, so it’s no surprise that there are more homeless people, and more of the usual bad things downstream of homeless people, rather than vague ones like “R.I.P. civilization, 4000 BC - 2026 AD isn’t just more grounded in the evidence. It’s also more compatible with living a normal life. I’m not a pragmatist who thinks you should be allowed to lie or do a biased survey of the evidence in order to live a normal life and escape despair. But I’m also not some kind of weird anti-pragmatist who makes a virtue out of ignoring evidence in order to keep despairing." <<<<<

I don't see your post as having any successful response to this kind of thing, just caricaturing me to accuse me of being part of a "church". As well accuse me of being part of the Church Of Wearing Jackets (see https://slatestarcodex.com/2013/06/13/arguments-from-my-opponent-believes-something/ )

Jeff F's avatar

I did not grow up in rationalist circles, and honestly some of that was intentional as it seemed like the adult version of that annoying kid in middle/high school who would "erm actually" vocally, rather than keep his thoughts to himself like a socially well adjusted individual who was smart enough to have recognized the teacher might not always be right.

But as part of it, I never really took the time to understand why *they* call themselves "rationalists". I assume (i still dont know for sure and dont care to) it is because they believe they are rational individuals who use logic and epistemic integrity to derive conclusions about the world.

But me personally, I always find it funny because, in layman's terms, if you say someone is "rationalizing something", it means theyre deluding themselves into affirming their preconceived notions by introducing selective evidence. And I think that is far more accurate for "rationalists" based on my observations.

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